Thanks for stopping by. This website is to discuss whether we want a peaceful abolishion of the Monarchy. This website is hosted by Blogspot in California so is hopefully beyond the reach of the 'old firm'. I've never been to California but it looks nice on TV.
If you would like to either keep the royals or if you would rather call it a day on the monarchy then please get involved, if you have something to say or contribute then please do. You can use the comment system provided. If you want to submit a longer piece then email me and I can edit and post emailed submissions on your behalf.
I only really know about the British monarchy, if you want to tell us about others then that is good too.
Friday, January 14, 2005
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41 comments:
I'm glad I came across this site. Excellent. Thank you.
Before I make my comments (already added one to the Nazi story), let me tell you my background. I am a British "subject" (oh, how I cringe at that word!), actually am English. I was raised very upper class. (Fyi to Americans here, that does not mean you are automatically rich--it is to do with with your actual heritage, tastes, manners, etc,--one can't be middle class and inherit a million and then be called upper class. What you are born into is what you remain. It is truly toto do with "so called "class" --you can't even be taught it and some have treid to pawn themselves off as higher than they are. There are some wealthy working class shop keepers and people like Virgin's Branson who remain very 'common'/"lower class", if you will, and there are families who, like mine are upper class but through one circumstance or another are financially poor. One's class identity is often dispalyed by one's accent and how well one talks, one's tastes, ways of doing things, etc.)
Anyway! The point I am saying is that I was not raised wealthy, but realtively humbly, yet although my identity was upper class, my associations, due to our finances, were usually quite middle or working class. That is a good thing in the end. I am enriched actaully. I can realte to a greater spehere. Hey Jesus was working class, yes? I have not been sheltered.
I see the incredible snobbery of the "upper" classes who think the world should serve them, as if it owes them something. Even my wealthier family members sometimes have looked down on our circumstance with their little snide remarks, all the time, like most upperclass or royals, living in their farce that somehow they are "mannered" and well bred. What hypocrisy!
I should also add that I am not, contrary to what you might think, some Oxbridge raving looney left Marxist or have any communist associations whatseover! Rather, I am absolutely a conservative, a Thatcherite, but also I am a Christian and it is with this mindset I abhor such a system where we must call someone "Your Majesty" and the like.
There is nothing remotely "majestic" or royal about the so called "Royal" family, well, other than thier wealth, Britain's wealth, actually. They act appaulingly and live off their inheritance and handouts, expecting the rest of us to call them by their honourary titles, bow to them ,etc, yet at the same time they want to "just live normal lives" as they always decry! Whilst enjoying their luxuries (none of which they have truly worked for or even their parents), they demand a level of privacy far beyond what any other celebretory expects and deals with. Don't these spolit grown children know that such "nuisance" comes with the territory?
If they truly wanted to live normal lives then why don't tehy start to "demand" that no one calls them by these titles, demand that they buy their own homes and give back all their money and estates to the country for museum work and charities and go get jobs?! Of course, it shouldn't be that difficult, one book of memoirs will set them up for life. They will be well connected and should still be able to live their unreal existence, but at least they can begin the descent of future generations being further left alone from having nobley, rightly, volunteered to absolve their positions now. The fact of the matter remains, however, that they yet still have a high level of privacy--do you know where they are this evening, today, most days? Of course not. They are seen more when they go on holiday, true, well tough luck--they don't have to go ski in the alps, etc, etc!
It is ludicrous to suggest that abolishing the monarchy is going to ruin our tourism, our attraction. The lure of Britain is our history, culture, physical beauty, language, architecture, etc. Afterall, tourists still flock to France don't they?! The buildings can become great museums of a bygone era when ignorant societies thought that some people were actually inherently better or "bluer" than others, rather than knowing all men are indeed created equal.
How can we honestly tel the rest of the word to have equality when we continue to uphold such an antiquated system of "royals"? We can still teach true manners and civility and such without the likes of little ppratying "I just wann have fun" Willy and Harry, or their embarrssing father and his taudy mistress.
It would be one thing if they actaully acted 'royal' but they are so dreadfully rude and selfish. OK, the Queen and Queen mother (RIP) have been good role models on the whole but even the Queen has become increasinly vulgar in her jelly fish wobblyness--no back bone to say and do the right thing when it really counts! If they cared obout our sovereignty they would speak out against Brussels and EU's bullying ways and silly laws forced on us. But no, of course they won't, they have no real power. It is all an illusion, a farce kept up for the mere sake of living history, pomp and decorum. It's rubbish. The sooner we allow them to leave their homes in peace the better. I would hope they would do the right thing and like Edward, leave their titles, lands, homes, and demand they be considered normal then we can willingly oblige! Otherwise, at least they could please quit their whinning, quit their foolish cavorting ways, shut up and put up! Oh, such hard lives they live--with their huge staff in tow, attending to their every need! I mean, come on, how many days to they actaully have royal duties? Not that many. At least we can put them to work 40-50 hours a week, every week, as the rest of us, if not more, considering their exhorbitant entitlements. Let's hope a start will be for Charles to absolve his title when King, as head of the Church of England--what a joke! Sadly, one of many I'm afraid.
OK, so that's my input. I will end by 'saying' Bravo on a site well done!
You people are scum. You are all socialist, left-wing, class-envious, uneducated morons with no idea what you're talking about.
The British Monarchy has survived for almost 1,000 years, and it will be here long after you unpatriotic traitors have "expired."
God save the queen! Behead the traitors!
By the way, Britain without the monarchy will be as ridiculous as France since the Revolution. Britian will lose its heritage. The monarchy is the glue that holds it together. Britain will be nothing without the monarchy, but a bunch of liberal, blathering idiots.
Long live the Queen!
No really just shut up...............the monarchy is vital to Britain and I want it. I will fight to keep it!
GOD SAVE THE QUEEN!
I would like to see the Monarchy abolished in the UK. What century are anonymous, anonymous and anonymous living in?
The people of the UK should be allowed to elect who they want to represent them - and this includes the highest post in the land - head of state.
Lots of other countries have elected heads of state and prime ministers too, such as Ireland and India - one would not say that either of those countries are any the worse for not having a King or Queen.
If the Queen wishes to stand for election, let her. But I, for one, will be fighting for the abolition of the monarchy and have hence set up www.cambridgerepublic.org to help this process along.
Matthew
www.cambridgerepublic.org
"Forgive them Lord" for they don't know what they are talking about. The people who want to abolish the monarchy are probably the same idiots who voted for Tony Blair. What a boon to the country he has been, responsible for the deaths of innocent Londoners, Iraqis and British soldiers.
"Forgive them Lord" for they don't know what they are talking about. The people who want to abolish the monarchy are probably the same idiots who voted for Tony Blair. What a boon to the country he has been, responsible for the deaths of innocent Londoners, Iraqis and British soldiers.
Greetings.
All I really have to say on the matter is that, as a member of the Church, I abhor the monarchy.
I also abhor all conservatives and Oiks such as this coward who refuses to leave his real name.
Thatcherism ruined our beautiful country. I'd rather see our soldiers die for deposing a dictator than cowering behind their castles.
Those who truly have no knowledge are those who claim that the lord will save someone because they inherit a title.
Very interesting indeed! As an American who believes that the royal family has outlived its usefullness long ago, I must say that it is great to hear Brits speak out against their slimy Reptilian rulers. Abolish the Monarchy? It will never happen. They can and will do as they please. The monarchy has its dirty hands mixed up in world affairs far beyond what people are aware of. The Vatican, Israel, Hitler and the USA. We are an extension of the British Empire under the guise of the Free Masons. The American Revolution was a farce. It only seems like we are separated. The USA is now on its way out while the Globalists (Bildeberg's) are using our military to implement and facilitate their agenda. One world government is coming people. One world economy and ultinately one world religion. National ID cards are coming. It is all tied in. The royals are evil. They always have been. They are involved and behind it all. It is no coincidence that current world attention is focused on the Middle East. Iraq is Eastern Mesopotamia. The oldest civilizations of our age. Sumer, Babylon, Assyria etc. There is still much information hidden away in this area of our true origins and what is in store for the world in the next few years. The rest is in the Vatican vaults and libraries. The Vatican is well aware of our extraterrestrial ties and the truth of the "gods". The British Israel World Federation spoke of Sept. 11, 2001 in the late 1930s. The British Israel World Federation Movement's Destiny Magazine published articles identifying September 2001 as the target date for beginning their planned global theocratic state. The 2001 Congressional Record of the United States of America, 76th Congress, Third Session, dated April 19, 1940 speaks of "Steps Toward British Union, a World State, and International Strife- Part I." British peoples are descended from the House of Israel and bear the marks of God’s Chosen People as defined in the Bible. Believe it or not. We are being prepared for the truth that is coming soon. It all ties in to the British Royal Family and those who realy run this planet of ours. You can't get rid of them.
time to get together old soldeirs and people that see that charles (small C) is a waist of space and that if he and his entire familily are not rimoved and he is not helled responsible for his wifes death then their is no justice in this country.
i just have?
I have lived in America and UK I pledge my unwavering allegiance to no man any one who does is unwise. We elect people to govern our country that is democracy. You earn your own way and honor, that is fair. Wealthy people often grind the poor and use class system to lord it over others. Its wrong and those who support it are fools. There is no soveriegn but God as it is written "those who are first will be last." Get in the back of the line Queen Elizabeth II and GWB!
"You people are scum. You are all socialist, left-wing, class-envious, uneducated morons with no idea what you're talking about."
As a financially and socially upper class thirteen year old socialist, I firstly fail to see what is so 'sinful' about being a socialist. Secondly, the fact that a fervent supporter of the monarchy has called me scum proves the old attitude to those who express their concern against such inequality. As I (unfortunately) attend a private school, have intelligent and well read parents and am intelligent myself I also don't see why I am a moron. At least let others express their opinions without trying to bully them into keeping quiet.
"The British Monarchy has survived for almost 1,000 years, and it will be here long after you unpatriotic traitors have "expired.""
Don't be so sure. More and more people are realising that there is no need for a monarchy and it costs us millions of pounds in taxes that could be used to fund our currently appalling state education system.
"God save the queen! Behead the traitors!"
Oh dear.
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""Forgive them Lord" for they don't know what they are talking about."
We don't?
"The people who want to abolish the monarchy are probably the same idiots who voted for Tony Blair."
Over my dead body would I ever vote for Blair.
"What a boon to the country he has been, responsible for the deaths of innocent Londoners, Iraqis and British soldiers."
I entirely agree, though why do you think that people not in favour of the monarchy support Blair? As far as I am aware of Blair himself supports the monarchy greatly.
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James, I entirely agreed with your post, and you made a good point about the class system. However:
"I should also add that I am not, contrary to what you might think, some Oxbridge raving looney left Marxist or have any communist associations whatseover"
Can I ask you, what is considered so shameful about being a Marxist?
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It's funny that everyone who supports the monarchy on here has to insult those who are against it aggressively....sort of says a bit about the sort of people who support and oppose the monarchy...
"By the way, Britain without the monarchy will be as ridiculous as France since the Revolution."
Sorry...what's so ridiculous about France? I was under the impression that it is a more successful country than England...unless you like hardly any civil rights and an appalling health and education system?
"Britian will lose its heritage."
Britain's heritage is beautiful buildings and fabulous artwork...not a family who don't even bother to go out to work.
"The monarchy is the glue that holds it together."
The monarchy has virtually no effect on our lives. It's simply a figurehead.
"Britain will be nothing without the monarchy, but a bunch of liberal, blathering idiots."
Sounds good to me...though I'd prefer a bunch of socialist, blathering idiots. ; )
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"No really just shut up"
So now you don't think we have a right to speak out...
Miuccia
"time to get together old soldeirs and people that see that charles (small C) is a waist of space and that if he and his entire familily are not rimoved and he is not helled responsible for his wifes death then their is no justice in this country."
As much as I dislike him, why would he be responsible for Diana's death? Divorces are unfortunate but the fact that they got divorced doesn't mean that Charles is necessarily to blame.
Miuccia
hey fahter james tomas,
as a member of the Church you stupid jerk shouldn't abhor anybody. preferring sending soldies to iraq also shows that you are not a good member of the church. i really think that most of you, who want to abolish the monarchy don't really have any good reasons for it. i think you are fucking socialists or marxists. Great Britain wouldn't be so famous withouth the royal family. just think of tourism, image etc. you stupid idiots. but to be quite honest i don't care a damn about, whether you have a queen or not, because i am a german and don't give a damn what you do on your island.
tobias
ah, and one more thing.
if you really think, that Thatcherism ruined your "beautiful country" then you really don't know anyhting. i don't wanna know what it would look like without Thatcher.
tobias
and hey
you "financially and socially upper class thirteen year old socialist"
you think you are intelligent, but you are not you stupid little communist. (the upper communist class also had money, so that expression fits you)
how much money do they really cost. read something about the "crown estate" "Duchy of Lancaster". Find out how much they really get and how much they really give. the queen even pays income tax although she doesn't have to. i guess your private school didn't teach you that, neither do I. read it yourself. and by the way, the queen is your head of state. compare it with other countries how much money they spend on their head of state. compare it with italy for example.
you little stupid idiot you
and i say it again. i don't care, whether you have a queen or not, but i have the impression most of you really don't know what they are talking about
tobias
GOD SAVE THE QUEEN!!!
The only KING is the one in the heavens. There is no such mortal that deserves the title "king" or "queen."
Away with monarchy. Democracy just makes sense. There is nothing to pride yourselves over monarchy, which has done nothing for good of the people.
These are my thoughts.
How much money in taxes is allocated every year to the upkeep and maintenance of the Monarchy and their lifestyle? Not a snide quip, just a non-Brit who would like to know. Who pays for them?
I live in an absolute monarchy, we have no votes or democracy, and yet I have more civil liberties than Americans or British.
Yes, treason is a crime, yes it is bad to speak out against the nobles, but that is no different from England's 'hate crimes' or the Americans 'patriot act' in terms of civil liberties.
You must understand that I respect and adore our monarchy, and I am NOT from England, so I do not have an opinion on what you should or should not do. Also, you are not an absolute monarchy anyway, so it really does not matter to me.
Before I speak, please remember I come from an honourable country, and I mean no insult to anyone. I was brought up with anti-democracy views, so please don't take what I have to say entirely to heart.
What I don't like about democracy is it is a mob rule, or at least a majority rule. In the USA the people are split in half with democrat or republican, creating strife and inner hatred. There is no respect for each other, and the society is more capitalist than honour based (as it is here). If someone becomes president and you did not 'vote' for them then you feel let down, and have distrust in your country.
I am sorry if my words cause offence, but I did not want you all to think that all people from a monarchy are based on insults. To me what the others have said is not very respectful, and while nobody here wants to abolish our wonderful nobles who are only here to serve us, you may do so in your country, as I know your systems are very different to ours.
Even the Greeks, who invented democracy, shunned it. Aristotle and Plato, two Greek scholars, shunned democracy, saying that the one true system of government was an ‘Enlightened Monarchy’.
I will leave you with this quote about monarchy:
“Monarchy is first proved to be the true and rightful form of government. Men’s objects are best attained during universal peace: this is possible only under a monarch. … To this noblest end does the monarch and he alone guide us; other forms of government are perverted, and exist for the benefit of some class; he seeks the good of all alike, being to that very end appointed.”
And this about democracy:
“Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes or film stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.”
For more information about how democracy is NOT free, please read this: http://www.isil.org/resources/lit/democracy-vs-freedom.html
Britain without the monarchy wouldn't be what it is today. The Crown nowadays has no power and is purely symbolic.
Without the monarchy Britain's whole sense of security would fall apart.
you brainless fool, could you think of nothing better to do than slag off people who do more for charity than you would know, being ill-educated as you are the monarchy is 1,ooo years old and thats for good reason.why dont dont you set up a blog about paris hilton bit more your area,god save the queen.
This needs doing before charles gets in. My points are:
Monarchy is too expensive
Birth right to power is wrong
Charles is gonna throw his weight around when he gets in
A republic is being held back and we are suffering for it
Its just plain backwards
I am sure that you did not know this, but the Queen should never have taken the Throne. True. As a Born again [Protestant Christian] I know this to be true, and even allowing for Doctrinal differences she has already forfeitedd the Crown.
The 1701 Settlements Act states several things see it here http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content.aspx?activeTextDocId=1565208
(1) Firstly it FORBIDS any persons who is a Catholic , married to a Catholic or has anything to do with the Holy See[Vatican and the Pope] from taking the Throne. At her Coronation the Queen swore allegience to the Catholic and Apostalic faith; see Times online archive on pages 4 and 13 she swore it. Even allowing for the doctrinal difference: it helps to know the history of the Church in Britain we see that Her majesty forfeits the Crown in the second part of the LAw.
(2) It forbids any "protestant monarch " from reconciling to the Holy See and all things Catholic. True the Act states that they shall not enjoy the benefits of Royalty i.e the Government and any regal powere and authority over the realme, and it allows Citizens to be absolve of their alligiences with such a monarch that has gone back to be reconciled with the Holy See [the Vatican and the Pope]
e.g not pay taxes.
The Queen did just that even if we allowed that Catholic and Apostalic Church is the True Church of England . In the 80s she visted the Vatican and met with the Pope when he came to the U.k, the Pope is planning another visit to the U.k next feb.
{b} the Queen appointed Rowan Williams - the only Archbishop to have been appointed not coming from the Church of England but of a Catholic faith.
{c} the QUeen had Vespers and HOLY COMMUNION at the main Catholic Church in 2005 the Church of England was in arms about it [apart from Dr Rowan that is]
and finally the Queen has an embassy a permant fixutre in the Vatican and as members of the EU is commuing with the Vatican.
So as my MP Johnn AUSTIN says : Long live the Republic!
Nobody should have that much privilege for doing absolutely nothing, and anybody who truly believes in the virtues of a meritocracy would be against it. All of these Royalist who defend the throne by saying "The monarchy is what makes Great Britain Great" are being absurd. China overthrew its monarchy nearly 100 years ago, and its emerging as the leading, world super power. The United States, though declining in its status, was the leading superpower throughout the last century and overthrew colonial control by the British. India gave up its conservative, caste based society, and now its economy is only growing stronger. The Monarchy really doesn't do anything besides take your tax dollars and use it to live out their lavish lives that most of us can only dream of. They're being rewarded for an accident of birth, simply because they happen to come from a line of thieves that set up a system of oppression over the people.
JUST END MONARCHY, ALL HUMANITY SHOULD BE EQUAL.. THOSE WHO ARE IN FAVOR OF MONARCHY ARE SLAVES WHO JUST OBEY AS THEY WE'RE TRAINED TO DO.. BUT THE UGLY TRUTH IS EQUALITY IS JUST ONE'S IMAGINATION...OPEN YOUR MIND. THINK FREELY.. PEACE
Most republicans are morons! All I ever hear is "we should have an elected head of state". What a load of garbage. Why? It aint broke - don't fix it. If so called educated republicans took one minute to look at exactly and I mean EXACTLY what the monarchy does do for this country, they might think twice. It's like some sort of perverted jealousy and I don't get it. They do a terrific job. Has nobody here heard of the Prince's Trust? Does anyone think that it will be cheaper having a president? It will not. Does anyone think that a politician is somehow less corupt that members of the royal family? Get real. Besides, why do people still bang on about the marriage between Charles and Diana? She has been dead for 13 years for goodness sake. I thought she was great, I think Charles is great. What do their private lives have to do with the running of the monarchy? It's gossip greedy idiots that keep that mill wheel turning. LOOK AT WHAT THEY DO ACTUALLY DO and then come back with a better argument. God Save The Queen.
We all see that this blog is not getting the support of vast majority of the Queen's subjects. Bow you or forever be damned.
RM
-MALAYA
If we don't end the monarchy we will not survive. Since the late 60's it has caused racism to increase, sexism to go up and satanism to be plastered on every magazine. They do not care about anyone but themselves. They are corrupt.
Yahweh
Karen Ringland
The British Monarchy is nothing more than the autocracy exhibited by Egypt, Libya, Yemen.. but in it's subtle, refined and sophisticated form! I hope the British people are as smart as the Libyans, Yemenis... Time to 'walk like the Egyptians'!
yeah , the so called monarchy in the uk, are not english, not british and the flag is a piece of poxy cloth that means nothing at all , if they were true BRITS their ancestry would show this , and it does not , time to wake up people of the planet earth , time to sort out your own futures , One Race the Human Race and i dont mean Race in the sense of running to be first, i am subject to my own free will and no one elses, regardless of opinion, the time is coming, and the people will smash all that seek to govern , feather your own nests while you can, cos when the fuel runs out you are as fucked as everyone is , then it comes down to 1 on 1 and the odds are stacked against the NWO, England is a MELTING POT of ALL RACES and has been so since it was first invaded , dont be such dumb asses , go wave your cloth while the rest of us laugh at you , pathetic supremacist crap , who the hell do you deacon's think gave away land and titles just after the black plague ?, who owned these lands and titles before the monarchy, ? look it up on the internet , maybe you will wake up then eh? no man owns the earth , so all your paperwork might be useful as bog paper,
Abolish all monarchy asap worldwide
, cheers then , have a lovely time wont you ,
i truly believe in the flag , i have wrapped myself up in it when i was homeless, it was not waterproof, and had no benefits what so ever , however, i was approached by royalty who offered me fuck all, such lovely people hey? any chance of a free deed of ownership of any excess property held falsely by the german tourists ?
i truly believe in the flag , i have wrapped myself up in it when i was homeless, it was not waterproof, and had no benefits what so ever , however, i was approached by royalty who offered me fuck all, such lovely people hey? any chance of a free deed of ownership of any excess property held falsely by the german tourists ?
lots of brainwashed bilge water heads claim to be BRITISH, fact is before the ROMANS came here, we were BRITISH/PICTISH/SCOTTISH, and now we are MULTI RACE , so please do shut up with the " I will defend crap" if you are so well educated , then perhaps your ANCESTRY will show you the truth, i speak english, but thats about all, as the rest is total crap.
My Great Grandfather was a man that Painted The Royal Lines on to the Queens carriages, what does that mean ? i tell you what it means, NOTHING !and that is fact not fiction , shove your peerage crap as far as you can get it .
Y'all feather your own nests with ill gotten gains, when the time comes it will count for nothing.
Defeatist attitudes are for the weak , Equality will become a true reality as the people of the PLANET HAVE FREE WILL, and this is given to all humanity , redress the balance , undermine the rich ,
reverse psychology , reverse law wording , etc etc , these so called rulers rule their own heads and fuck all else , who am i ? ,i am the future .
cant wait to see all the looks on peoples faces when they realise they have no more oil, no more petrol, no more diesel, ha ha ha ha ha ha ha , excellent ,
LAY OF THE LAND IS THE KEY, Money is PAPER and metal, all come from the earth, the earth will take her revenge on those that dig too greedily and too deep , Y'all need to learn to LIVE WITH NATURE not against it , bad luck to the rich and a million curses additionally.
This is an interesting and necessary discussion, in this day and age. I wish to point out that Malaysia is the only country in the world that has 9 royal households. It is not cheap on the Malaysian taxpayer, and the opinion is divided on whether it should stay.
Here is an interesting page on the monarchy in Malaysia
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Malaysia-Should-Become-A-Republic/259787130732876
On behalf of the people of Sweden
I would say that Monarchy has served it's purpose (albeit poorly) in the past, and now it has become completely redundant.
Our Swedish Monarch - King Carl Gustaf XVI is not even a descendant of any historical royal family, but in fact the descendant of Napoleon's Field Marshal Jean Baptiste Jules Bernadotte, And is therefore as royal as BB King, even the historical Swedish monarchy was built on a fantasy,
In the 16th century, Johannes Magnus construed a mythical line of Swedish kings, beginning with Magog, the son of Japheth, in an attempt to substantiate the antiquity of the Swedish throne.
It's all of course complete nonesense. The whole imaginary concept of the divine right of kings is patently absurd, since nothing divine exists in reality.
In my opinion the time has come for all European monarchs to find proper jobs and give up the whole rediculous pretense of sovereignty over other human beings they call "subjects".
Royals are virtually useless at everything other than embarassing themselves in any case, so perhaps it would be best to let QEII live out the rest of her days as imaginary Queen of an Imaginary Empire, and on her passing then there should be a general election for an elected head of state,
which could be called "King" or "Queen" or "President" or "Fudgebiscuit" or whatever sounds good, but never again an heriditary monarch - Never Again.
Time to wake up and live in the 21st century.
I believe the monarchy is desperately trying to maintain favour with the people and overtly using the media as a tool.
Williams wedding to a (said)"commoner" was just one example. She may be from "trade" but the "commoner" bit is a at least questionable!
There is No Reason for the monarchy to exist, all they have was gained from theft and deception, it must be returned! The Deception must End!!
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